00:12:26 (someone): Absolutely. And yes, like we would get together, you know, me, Matt, Tim, Pat, and other friends and would occasionally talk about Spikeball. And, you know, somebody would casually mention like, yeah, it would be, you know, wouldn't it be cool if, and, you know, that happened every once in a while, but nothing ever really took root. Well, I'm not certain. I do believe I remember the... My first couple of years at Monster were great. I loved it. But the last couple of years, culture went kind of toxic. The company got in some trouble with the SEC. I think maybe an exec or two went to jail. And it became a pretty toxic environment and kind of... I don't know if that was what wound up pushing me to say, you know what? I'm actually going to do some research and see if we can actually do this. I'd imagine if I were able to go back in time and interview myself, that probably was a factor. And yeah, when I started researching it, it wasn't like, oh my god, this would be amazing. We can make so much money. But it was, this would be a fun side project.

00:13:27 Guy Raz: Yeah. And as you mentioned, Spikeball had been around for a while. Like it had been around for about 15 years, I think, when you guys played it in Hawaii. So, I mean, when you really start to look into this, I would imagine that the first thing you would have done would be to go to Google and type in spikeball or owner or something like that. Is that how it started?

01:02:13 (someone): It's a super boring word when you think about it, round net. But if you take away everything you know about the name basketball, Or football. Or baseball. Those are all pretty boring names as well. But what you know about the sport, all the brands, the athletes, etc. That's why you get excited when you hear those names. And, you know, when I did come up with the word RoundNet, part of me, I'd say 10% of me was like, don't do it. Because I of course want the whole world saying the word spikeball. But 90% of me was like, look, if you are that controlling, this thing will probably never get – the sport definitely will not get to the size that I think it can be.

01:02:59 Guy Raz: And so you basically decided to create this – like a governing body for a sport called RoundNet?

01:03:08 (someone): I came up with the name RoundNet, but as tournaments started becoming more and more of a thing, different leaders within the community started speaking up saying, hey, I like this rule or I don't like that one. And yeah, it sort of emerged that governing bodies started coming around. It's pretty well developed right now. You know, there's the International RoundNet Federation. That's sort of the global governing body. And then I think it's 37 countries also have governing bodies, and they all report up and into the IRF.

01:03:42 Guy Raz: We've seen this with pickleball. I mean, pickleball has been around since, I think, the 60s, but now it's just exploded in the last, like, five years.

01:09:25 (someone): And the exciting part we've been seeing the last few months is there's fairly significant interest from the pickleball world. Wow. we are hearing from pickleball tournament directors saying, this is a heck of a lot better than what we've got and it makes life a lot easier. And yeah, I see tremendous potential there. And we've seen people using it for like board game tournaments, volleyball tournaments, lacrosse tournaments. So very excited about its potential and it's still very, very early.

01:09:55 Guy Raz: So how, I mean, how much in terms of like looking at the future of the business, What percentage of the business do you hope Fuango to be in 10 years from now versus the product line?

01:10:08 (someone): I think it can become a significant profit driver. If you think of consumer products where you're making a physical product, Margins aren't that great, right? You have to make a thing, you have to ship it, and there's all sorts of stuff involved. If you think of software businesses, you make the thing once, and if a million people use it, you don't have to make it a million more times. So, yeah, I'd love to see it, and I don't think it'll be able to be, with RoundNet, the sport, being the size it is today, it's not gonna be a major moneymaker. So in order for Fuengo to become a significant driver to our bottom line, it needs to become a player in some other sports. And, you know, if it's pickleball that happens to say, yeah, we like this, then, okay, we're going to start working on some features.

01:05:11 (someone): Oh, wow. And I was just having this out of body experience. I can't believe I'm standing in a field in Belgium watching a group of Japanese people play a group of Mexican people round that. Nothing more gratifying than to see that this is what millions of people are choosing to do.

01:05:31 (someone): Yeah.

01:05:32 Guy Raz: All right, so now you've created this name, RoundNet, and there are tournaments around the world. And let me ask you about the marketplace for RoundNet, because if you go to Amazon and you type in Spikeball, understandably, there's going to be a bunch of competitors. And they look pretty similar, you know, and some of them are, you know, significantly less expensive, but they're allowed to do that, right? This is not a patented product. Anybody can make it.

01:05:58 (someone): Yeah. I mean, we do have, um, we've got some patents that have been filed for some that have been accepted, but yeah, the, the general concept, yeah, is not protected. And I remember when I think the first one showed up in 2014 or 15.

01:06:16 Guy Raz: Who was that?

01:06:17 (someone): Who did it? Uh, Franklin sports, I believe it was spider ball.

01:06:23 Guy Raz: Oh, wow. That's a big company. And it was exactly like what you guys were doing.

01:06:28 (someone): Lower end, the same shape in general, same concept. And I was at the Toy Fair in New York when I first saw it. So I was absolutely terrified. I'm like, there's absolutely no way we can compete.

00:30:09 Guy Raz: We want to make these. And they're like, yeah, we can do that.

00:30:12 (someone): Yeah, well, we took it to them and we said, we've got some ideas on how we want to make it better, make it stronger, change the design, et cetera. But that was the prototype or sort of the base. And they were nice. But as you can imagine, a company like that is used to making quantities of, I would assume, 20, 30 million units of something. And I think our first order was 1,000 units. And they agreed to make them for you? They did. And if I remember right, I think it was about $40,000, maybe $50,000 for those first 1,000 sets.

00:30:48 Guy Raz: All right, so you get the first 1,000 prototypes made. In the meantime, you're doing your day job, but the idea was, and this is 2007, maybe 2008 by the time you get them made, e-commerce is still not really, I mean, it's still a couple of years before it starts to take off, but the idea was to sell it through a website, spikeball.com. That was the idea?

00:31:12 (someone): Yeah, yeah, and I kind of had a feeling like, Even if we wanted to get into stores, I just didn't think we would be able to. It's a weird-looking trampoline. It's kind of complicated to explain how you play. And I still had that sort of dot-com buzz from San Francisco and kind of this, in general, I love challenging the status quo. And I feel like the normal way a company would launch would be, yeah, the first thing you do is you call Dick's Sporting Goods and you try to get in there.

00:08:49 Guy Raz: Pat and Tim, Kennedy. Yeah. And on this trip, they bring a game with them, which is what was the game they brought?

00:09:00 (someone): The game is Spikeball. They had purchased one years ago, so this was 2003. I believe Spikeball was launched in 1989, so I was 14 at the time. I was kind of that annoying brother, so I wasn't really allowed to play with them, but I'd kind of watch from afar, and I'm like, yeah, that's kind of cool. didn't really play much until that trip in Hawaii. And, you know, they had this beat up set that was probably 10 plus years old, you know, had duct tape on it, it had a different ball, you know, not the same one. It was kind of falling apart, but it worked.

00:09:32 Guy Raz: And I guess we should explain here how spike ball works a little bit. I mean, because the rules are, I think, a little like volleyball, except the net is on the ground and it's round. It's like a mini trampoline, sort of. And basically, it's two teams playing against each other, two on two, right? And so like volleyball, you can hit the ball up to your other teammates three times in the air, up to three times. But on the third hit, it has to be spiked at the net, right? And then the other team has to either spike it back on the net or hit it to another teammate. And when the other team misses it, you get a point. And if you can't catch the ball, that's like traveling in basketball, right?

00:03:18 Guy Raz: And over the past few years, spikeball has grown. A lot. But the game actually dates back to the late 1980s. For a couple of years, you could buy spikeball sets at places like Toys R Us. But alas, it never took off and eventually was discontinued. That is, until Chris Ruder and a few friends decided to revive it and try and turn it into a competitive sport. And to say that it was a grind, or at least initially a quixotic business idea, Well, that would be an understatement. For starters, Chris had to contact the inventor of the original Spikeball and deal with the delicate matter of who actually had the rights to the game. Then, for six years, he ran the business all by himself while simultaneously holding down a full-time job to provide for his family. And at times, he struggled with sales. But he noticed an interesting trend among a few particular groups of people that would actually help get Spikeball on a different trajectory. And one of those groups? The Amish. But we'll get there. When Chris was growing up about an hour south of Chicago, he wasn't that interested in sports. He actually dreamed about being a photojournalist, like for National Geographic or something. And in his early 20s, he moved to San Francisco to try to make it in the world of journalism. But instead, he found himself working in advertising sales in the midst of the dot-com explosion.

00:04:49 (someone): Without trying to overdo it, I think intoxicating is the word I'd use.

01:12:01 (someone): I used to be. Now, if I stumble on some rookies on the beach, maybe they're 22 years old and, you know, in general, way better athletes than me, but if this is the first time they've been playing, yes, I will beat them. But if I go to a tournament, I get absolutely smoked. Yeah. It's depressing.

01:12:23 Guy Raz: That's Chris Ruder of Spikeball. By the way, Jeff Knurek, the original inventor of spikeball, turns out he's now the cartoonist and co-creator behind Jumble, the word puzzle that's syndicated in hundreds of newspapers around the world. And he still sponsors spikeball teams and promotes the sport through his own club and website. It's called Club Spike. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app. so you never miss a new episode of the show, and it's totally free. This episode was produced by Chris Messini and edited by Neva Grant, with music composed by Ramtine Arablui. Our production team also includes JC Howard, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Liz Metzger, Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, and Carla Estevez. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to How I Built This early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts.

00:44:55 (someone): Yeah. They'd tell us like, you know, we're always looking for cool, new, innovative games. One thing we did hear from them, which I loved, they're like, you know, of a group of, let's say a class of 25 kids, there's usually three to four that are pretty difficult to engage. You know, they may not want to participate and do what everybody else is doing. But when we bring out the spike ball nets, those are the kids that are most wanting to engage and they're most into it. That was one draw of it. We've heard from, you know, teachers that have, you know, students in wheelchairs and stuff and I've seen countless videos of four kids in wheelchairs playing and they absolutely love it.

00:45:36 Guy Raz: There's one story I read about another, because you had, I mean, initially the subcultures were like PE teachers and ultimate players and Christian youth groups, but apparently also like Amish and Mennonite communities. Did you know about this, that it was like super popular among Mennonites and the Amish?

00:45:59 (someone): I did not initially. I knew it was very popular in central Pennsylvania, especially Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And we got an email from a reporter at the Wall Street Journal saying, Chris, I'd love to interview you about the Amish and Mennonite influence or participation and spike ball. And I was like, holy smokes, you know, what a dream to get a note like that from the Wall Street Journal. But not in a million years did I think that would be the topic. Yeah. And I had seen some pictures on social media before of people in what I would consider traditional Amish clothing or Mennonite clothing playing.

00:13:36 Guy Raz: So, I mean, when you really start to look into this, I would imagine that the first thing you would have done would be to go to Google and type in spikeball or owner or something like that. Is that how it started?

00:13:51 (someone): Yeah, I looked it up and reached out to an attorney friend, and he looked it up, and he's like, yeah, there never was a patent on the product, so the design itself is kind of open. And the trademark, which protects the name Spikeball, has been expired like 10 years or something like that.

00:14:09 Guy Raz: Wait, hold on. Let me just clarify something. I mean, this is a game that was actually introduced in 1989. And it was invented by this guy named Jeff Knurik. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. And he, I guess he was working for like some small company and they worked with Tomy, the Japanese toy company. It was a Japanese toy company. I remember Tomy when I was a kid. Tomy toys. I'm watching, you know, G.I. Joe or cartoons on Saturday, you always see Tomy toys. And they actually put it out and marketed it as this, as it was a net with a ball and it was a game, right? But it went nowhere. Like it was that was it. And then they just stopped making it after like 1991.

00:14:49 (someone): Yeah, I think their main retailer was Toys R Us, if I remember right. And you need not great hand-eye coordination, but I'd say probably age 11 or 12 and up is probably what's appropriate.

01:00:49 (someone): Absolutely. So Spikeball is a company that makes equipment for the sport of round net. And okay. I got to know a woman named Mary Horwath. She's the former chief marketing officer of Rollerblade. And she was there back in the 90s when it absolutely exploded. And back then, people were using the name Rollerblade. A lot of people were using it in a generic fashion. Let's go play Rollerblade hockey. Let's go rollerblading, et cetera. And she realized that if people kept using it that way, that they could potentially lose their trademark and Rollerblade would become a generic term. So she is the one that coined that phrase or the term inline skates. So that's why at the X Games, there is no competition or rollerblade competition. There's an inline skating competition. And she saw how we were using the name Spikeball as the name of the sport and in, you know, sometimes in a generic fashion. And she and some other folks I spoke with said, yeah, you need a name for the actual sport, similar to baseball, basketball, football. You know, those are all generic terms that nobody owns the rights to. And I remember thinking like, okay, what makes our product unique? Well, the biggest thing I believe is it's a round net. Like I can't think of a single other sport that has a round net in it. It's a super boring word when you think about it, round net. But if you take away everything you know about the name basketball,

00:08:49 Guy Raz: Pat and Tim, Kennedy. Yeah. And on this trip, they bring a game with them, which is what was the game they brought?

00:09:00 (someone): The game is Spikeball. They had purchased one years ago, so this was 2003. I believe Spikeball was launched in 1989, so I was 14 at the time. I was kind of that annoying brother, so I wasn't really allowed to play with them, but I'd kind of watch from afar, and I'm like, yeah, that's kind of cool. didn't really play much until that trip in Hawaii. And, you know, they had this beat up set that was probably 10 plus years old, you know, had duct tape on it, it had a different ball, you know, not the same one. It was kind of falling apart, but it worked.

00:09:32 Guy Raz: And I guess we should explain here how spike ball works a little bit. I mean, because the rules are, I think, a little like volleyball, except the net is on the ground and it's round. It's like a mini trampoline, sort of. And basically, it's two teams playing against each other, two on two, right? And so like volleyball, you can hit the ball up to your other teammates three times in the air, up to three times. But on the third hit, it has to be spiked at the net, right? And then the other team has to either spike it back on the net or hit it to another teammate. And when the other team misses it, you get a point. And if you can't catch the ball, that's like traveling in basketball, right?