00:33:43 Jordan Peterson: And why do you let's start with that? This what is this set of assumptions about the about race relations in the US that that perturb you?

00:33:51 (someone): Well, there's one main assumption, which is that it's the job of the, shall we say, woke Black person to focus on racist obstacles to Black success and to purport that racism, be it social or systemic, is a conclusive obstacle to general Black success. rather than an impediment that you can get around. And then there's an extension from that, that racism of both of those kinds is so oppressive that it's the defining experience of being a Black person. And so it means that if you are a Black person and you're writing, be it fiction or nonfiction or opinion, your focus is supposed to be always and forever racist oppression. Because if you're not doing that, you're not authentic and you're dissociating yourself from blackness in some way. And I find that as a, as a Montessori kid who has a lot of interests, I've always found that extremely confining. As soon as I hit adolescence, I realized, wow, I'm expected to be this racism focused person, maintaining a wariness of white socially that has not been necessary since about, you know, five years before I was born. And I think that it is, It's a cloak that people put on because human beings seek comfortable cloaks to put on. It becomes a sense of being part of a tribe, but it has a way of departing from what reality actually necessitates.

00:35:10 (someone): It's a cloak that people put on because human beings seek comfortable cloaks to put on. It becomes a sense of being part of a tribe, but it has a way of departing from what reality actually necessitates. And I have just not been able to gracefully allow that sort of thing to define my life or to pretend to believe in those things. And so when I was around, how old am I when I start to pop? In my early 30s, I was at Berkeley. First was Cornell, then was Berkeley, then was the Manhattan Institute. And at UC Berkeley, racial preferences were discontinued. The idea was that there were no longer going to be different standards for allowing Black and Latino students to be admitted. than white and Asian students. And the way this was talked about was as if all black people are poor, as if the idea was that you don't change standards, even for people who've grown up hard, when actually most black students at Berkeley by then were very middle class and the problems were different. And I just couldn't remain silent. I remember the hardest thing for me was that there would be a white professor who would come and lean in my doorway and start start saying all of the usual pious sorts of things about race that I don't think truly cohere, such as implying that racism defines my entire existence. And I was expected to just sit there and nod. They really thought that any Black person thought that way. And I thought, no, you're missing me completely. Many Black people feel misread by whites. Well, I was having a different version of it.

01:22:39 (someone): facing far more severe physical challenges than I am, people who I share a hospital room with or people who I see when I walk through the cancer center. And it's like, and I see what they have to tell themselves, the rules they have to live by to get through the challenges they face on a day-to-day basis and get to somewhere positive and constructive. And, um, that's, you know, it's incredibly inspirational and it's, and it certainly makes it me, you know, frankly, the limited patience I had for people who undermine or want to downplay the importance of that, that way of looking at life and that way of orienting yourself to the world, that patience is far thinner than it was before. And it wasn't like I was very tolerant of that, you know, before I got sick either.

01:23:31 Jordan Peterson: Well, you know, it seems to me that that's probably a pretty good time to bring this discussion to a close. What do you think? What else? Is there anything else that you have to tell people? I mean, I'm kind of curious about how you had the opportunity to talk to all these young men or how you've taken that opportunity.

01:23:50 (someone): Well, a lot of it has been, you know, people who read the book and want me to come speak to students or youth that they work with. But it's also been because a couple of charities, Big Brothers Big Sisters and the pinball Clemens foundation. both of whom work with young men across Canada and also in the United States and other countries, they've organized opportunities for me to come speak to young men who they think would benefit most from hearing from me, young men who are struggling to find their way, who are having a hard time in school, who don't have parental support or mentors.

01:24:34 (someone): It's, frankly, it's like, I don't think anyone is the worst thing they've ever done. But also with that, they're not the best thing they've ever done. People are people are people and sometimes their work can transcend that. But it's you know, my problem with cancel culture at the moment is I'm slightly suspicious it might be the new burning books and And whereas we're very arrogant in our secular culture of our achievements, religion does certain things better. Religion has a road for redemption and forgiveness. Redemption are very underrated in the world of cancel culture.

01:25:10 Jordan Peterson: Confession as well, right? Well, confession is a key element in psychotherapy. Yeah, that's what you basically do in psychotherapy You say here's all the things I'm doing that might be stupid and hurtful or the things that have happened to me That's also a possibility, but it's often the former that are more useful So yeah, how come you haven't been cancelled?

01:25:34 (someone): I have several several times. Uh, I was uh, I was I had a uh attack scandal that nearly ended my career. I've had maybe four or five jokes over the years that have become a problems, you know, the papers. It's an interesting thing when it happens when the first time it happens to you. It's very shocking because you think, oh, my God, I found this incredible road. I found this life of being a comedian and I could lose it all in an instant. And that is terrifying. And then you realize it's it's kind of OK.

00:59:58 (someone): Yes. Yes. I mean, I think you're leaning into, you know, a lot of what we call a cancel culture today. Yeah. Is can that, you know, in the name of rehabilitation, do we have to have a world in which we are able to grow and evolve if that's what we're trying to do now? Oh, I mean, you know, I'm not for repeat offenders or tyrants. But if someone screws up, and they have sincere, they sincerely want retribution.

01:00:35 Jordan Peterson: I think it's fair to give people well, it better be because otherwise, we're all doomed.

01:00:39 (someone): Right?

01:00:40 Jordan Peterson: Well, absolutely. Like there's not a person among us who hasn't made repeated errors. And and if contrition and and repentance aren't sufficient, then we're all damned. No doubt about that. So. All right. So. So we were we were continuing our discussion on fame. So you you're 25 years into being famous and you seem to be doing it, handling your success. Right. in a manner that allows you to be pleased about the way your life has unfolded. And so thank God for that. And here you are, you're still here after all these years. And so you've handled your fame. Well, how come?

00:15:24 (someone): I think the higher you compete in terms of what level you're competing at athletically, whether that be high school, then college, and then whatever sport that you may be doing, Olympic level, I think the higher you compete, the more benefits you reap, typically. You learn more about determination, grit, resiliency. Of course, you are able to—the athletic achievements continue as well, but the lifelong skills and characteristics you develop outside of just the athletic achievements, these are skills that will translate far beyond that into your whole life, forever. And that's something, again, that I'm witnessing in myself. I think if I didn't play sports, if I didn't have that sense of teamwork, that sense of, I was team captain at University of Kentucky for two years, so if I didn't have that sense of leadership, accountability, really, I think accountability and responsibility is a good word, then I don't think I would feel confident enough to take a public stance in the way that I have this past year, which it sounds silly because my stance is so simple and it's rooted in, of course, truth and common sense and science and logic, reasoning, all the things. So it sounds silly to say I might not have the confidence and leadership and the security in and of myself to take the arrows that I'm taking if it weren't for sports. I really do accredit that to being an athlete. There was an Ernst & Young study that said near, I think, 94% of C-level executives, so CEO, CFO, COO, that are females were once female athletes. And I think that shows how the skills that you develop translate far beyond your sport.

00:14:11 Jordan Peterson: become vainglorious, let's say, as a consequence of winning, but even more importantly, that can take a defeat in good humor, can learn from it, and can move forward nonetheless. And the reason we admire that is because we all need to learn how to do that. And you do learn that in the context of competition, if the competition is structured fairly and as a consequence of task-specific merit, let's say, which is clearly the case in an athletic realm. Absolutely. Right. So you think now, you said that you made a lot of sacrifices on the time and energy front, let's say, to engage in this competitive enterprise, but that the rewards despite the effort, the rewards were much greater than the cost of the sacrifice. So, and you've alluded to some of the rewards. You said that you've been able to discipline yourself and push yourself, and you've also got resilient in the face of defeat, which is crucially important. How do you think that's generalized to the rest of your life? And do you think that's typically the case for people who engage in athletic competition? Like, what do you think that does for people in general?

00:15:24 (someone): I think the higher you compete in terms of what level you're competing at athletically, whether that be high school, then college, and then whatever sport that you may be doing, Olympic level, I think the higher you compete, the more benefits you reap, typically. You learn more about determination, grit, resiliency.

00:35:10 (someone): It's a cloak that people put on because human beings seek comfortable cloaks to put on. It becomes a sense of being part of a tribe, but it has a way of departing from what reality actually necessitates. And I have just not been able to gracefully allow that sort of thing to define my life or to pretend to believe in those things. And so when I was around, how old am I when I start to pop? In my early 30s, I was at Berkeley. First was Cornell, then was Berkeley, then was the Manhattan Institute. And at UC Berkeley, racial preferences were discontinued. The idea was that there were no longer going to be different standards for allowing Black and Latino students to be admitted. than white and Asian students. And the way this was talked about was as if all black people are poor, as if the idea was that you don't change standards, even for people who've grown up hard, when actually most black students at Berkeley by then were very middle class and the problems were different. And I just couldn't remain silent. I remember the hardest thing for me was that there would be a white professor who would come and lean in my doorway and start start saying all of the usual pious sorts of things about race that I don't think truly cohere, such as implying that racism defines my entire existence. And I was expected to just sit there and nod. They really thought that any Black person thought that way. And I thought, no, you're missing me completely. Many Black people feel misread by whites. Well, I was having a different version of it.

01:13:18 (someone): play it today. How do you want to get on?" I said, just sledge me, which is criticize me harshly. Every time I play a bad shot, I want mockery. I want taunting. I want laughter. I want you to be all over me like a cheap scent. So he did. He reveled in his role. And I played the best round of my week because actually what I needed was somebody to do that rather than somebody politely going, So when I myself worked for an editor, he was a pretty infamous newspaper editor called Kelvin McKenzie at the Sun. And he said the most annoying trait about me was he could give me a monstering, as he called it, where he would scream abuse until his neck was bulging. And an hour later, I'd bounce back into his office with a hot story and a smile on my face. And he found that completely annoying because it was not what he wanted to do. He wanted to trample me down for a few days. But he then said he knew then I would have what it took to be a newspaper editor. And I do feel in society, we have moved so far away from that kind of atmosphere now in workplaces. But I do wonder, what about people like me who genuinely thrive and get fueled by harsh criticism? Is that happening anymore? Are there any workplaces left in the world where anyone is allowed to be exposed to tough critiques? Have all talent shows now gone way too soft?

00:43:39 (someone): Yeah, I think you also rightly said you have to have people around you who perhaps are disagreeable enough to be completely, bluntly honest with you. whether it's my mother or one of my brothers or my sister or my son's in particular encourage them to be very independent minded and to let me know if they see or hear something i do which they think is wrong and explain why, add they do that regularly and i find that litmus test from people who really know you better than anybody else. So they really understand when you're making a fool of yourself or just behaving like a bit of a bit of a dick, right? You just see someone is going to tell you. And one of the big problems with modern celebrity is because I've interviewed a lot of very famous people. is that they often surround themselves with pure sycophancy, and they don't tolerate anyone drifting outside of sycophancy. Or the teams around them are so fearful of losing their very cushy jobs that they render themselves as useless sycophants permanently to avoid upsetting. So they may almost be almost wrongly second-guessing the people they work for, who might be perfectly OK people, because they think if they're not sycophantic, they're going to lose their job. So there's constant kind of pressure to blow smoke up the derrieres of these people, which doesn't help the stars themselves. It certainly doesn't help the people who work for them who are behaving in such a ridiculous manner. And the celebrities I know who I think really thrive over a long period of time, they always tend to have people in their entourage who are straight talkers. who literally will say to them in front of people, stop behaving like a dick.

01:05:35 Jordan Peterson: You celebrate the winners, you know? The cameramen don't go over and interview the losers. know, I mean and all that but and it's it I don't know why it is that in sports it's okay to Just to celebrate the triumphant and the victorious but it is okay and no one questions it It's it's or well, that's not true because now they have like non-competitive games for kids and you know That's part of the politically correct curriculum but most of the time most sane people will Celebrate along with a victorious athlete and that's really something Alright, so fear factor, how many years did that last? Six years. Were they good years? It was good financially.

01:06:17 (someone): Yeah, well, that's something I made a ton of money and it alleviated financial pressure. But I enjoyed doing it some somewhat, but it was not like the way I enjoy the other things that I do. It's not like I enjoy stand up comedy. It's not like I enjoy working for the UFC. It's not like I enjoy doing podcasts, all those things that I just talked about those three things. Those things are labors of love, their passions are things that I'm really genuinely fascinated by and interested in, like this conversation, I would have this conversation with you, if it was just you and me, and there was no cameras, I would love to have this conversation. I love having conversations with interesting people. I love stand up comedy. I love all those things. I didn't love being there for Fear Factor, but it was a great job.

01:22:39 (someone): facing far more severe physical challenges than I am, people who I share a hospital room with or people who I see when I walk through the cancer center. And it's like, and I see what they have to tell themselves, the rules they have to live by to get through the challenges they face on a day-to-day basis and get to somewhere positive and constructive. And, um, that's, you know, it's incredibly inspirational and it's, and it certainly makes it me, you know, frankly, the limited patience I had for people who undermine or want to downplay the importance of that, that way of looking at life and that way of orienting yourself to the world, that patience is far thinner than it was before. And it wasn't like I was very tolerant of that, you know, before I got sick either.

01:23:31 Jordan Peterson: Well, you know, it seems to me that that's probably a pretty good time to bring this discussion to a close. What do you think? What else? Is there anything else that you have to tell people? I mean, I'm kind of curious about how you had the opportunity to talk to all these young men or how you've taken that opportunity.

01:23:50 (someone): Well, a lot of it has been, you know, people who read the book and want me to come speak to students or youth that they work with. But it's also been because a couple of charities, Big Brothers Big Sisters and the pinball Clemens foundation. both of whom work with young men across Canada and also in the United States and other countries, they've organized opportunities for me to come speak to young men who they think would benefit most from hearing from me, young men who are struggling to find their way, who are having a hard time in school, who don't have parental support or mentors.

00:54:13 (someone): And then after that, if they're lucky, if they're very famous and popular, they can eke out a living with endorsements, right? Or, you know, for the rare person like Michael Phelps, or someone like that, who's just a true outlier, they can actually get wealthy from it. But it's very, very rare. Most of those athletes will be in severe debt, most of those athletes either have to get sponsored, or they have to find someone who is willing to share the burden and help them achieve their goals. But without some sort of altruistic benefactor who's got millions of dollars to pour into their camp. I mean, it's just, it's disgusting. They're professional athletes. I mean, that's what they do with their entire life. If you want to win a gold medal in the Olympics, in gymnastics, you can't have a side job. You can't be working eight hours a day. No, you have to be a professional athlete. And the Olympic Committee knows this. And if you've ever paid attention to how they've let people get away with cheating. I mean, there's a fantastic documentary out right now by Brian Fogle called Icarus, and it's all about the Sochi Olympics and how Russia cheated in the Sochi Olympics and the IOC barely punished them. They punished a few people. And how the IOC and the World Anti-Doping Agency all, they have people from each, they have from each organization, they share, like they go back and forth.

01:11:14 (someone): They're changing from within, because a lot of us People who are born and raised here for generations have decided that they are disappointed in modernity. They call themselves postmodernists or critical race theorists or whatever you name it, but this is ideology that's taking on. You can see it in newsrooms, in publication houses, tech world, and there is an alarming rejection of the fruits of modernity. of free speech of all the things that that I was impressed with when I came to the West.

01:11:54 Jordan Peterson: So you contrast an Islamic attitude towards women with a Western attitude towards women. So do we say that that's a contrast between the Islamic attitude towards women and the Judeo Christian attitude towards women? Is it reasonable to make that a religious issue? And or what do you think about that? I mean, is this is it?

01:12:20 (someone): Yeah, it is a religious issue. It's a cultural issue. It's a it's also an issue of not only generating and being the motto behind modernity and constantly modernizing, which is what Western societies are constantly doing. And then obviously, the religious component for me, when I analyze the leadership of Islam is the disappointment with modernity and the rejection of that. And again, that is why what are they rejecting?

01:12:51 Jordan Peterson: Do you think that and that we've accepted? What are the differences that enables the emergence of the idea that women could be equal, or that they are equal and that they should be? that that equality should be fostered and treasured and developed?

00:42:26 (someone): We profiled Coco Chanel, and she was an orphan at a young age in rural France. She comes up and she's opportunistic, but she's always looking forward. She's looking for opportunity. She's acting on that. There was no set path for her life. There was no predictability that she would be successful, but she was constantly adapting to what happened and being pretty aggressively opportunistic.

00:42:49 Jordan Peterson: Yeah, so that's that interesting paradox of both having a vision and being able to move and being able to dance on your feet when necessary. You need to be allied with the proper higher order principles, which is, you know, that's what the civics classes and humanities in the universities were supposed to help instill in people, was that ability to develop Affinity with with large-scale principles and then the same thing with religious education for that matter Which is which is I suppose one of the things that was motivating for for Luther King because he was educated But also had his has had his feet well planted on a firm religious foundation so without that it's very difficult for people to have the moral fortitude to move forward and

00:43:36 (someone): We also found that reinforcement's very important. Certain things like the Catholic Church or like the military where every day you do certain things. In the Montgomery bus boycott of 1955 to 56, you had 382 days when the African-American population of Montgomery, Alabama is trying to force integration of public transportation. And to do that, they boycott the buses. which meant that every day African-Americans had to walk to work or carpool. So every day they had to take an act that reaffirmed their commitment to the boycott.

00:53:47 (someone): The cultures I'm describing do not think in general that it is antisocial or negative in the least to be aggressive as a young male between the ages of two to four or beyond. That is the main difference between, say, evolved cultures like what we are now, you know, the cultures that have produced the laws we live under in Western society, and say, the Islamic Republic of Iran, or the now civil war-torn Syria, or Saudi Arabia, or Somalia, where I come from, it's not described as aggression in males is not seen as a bad thing. And the ways of channeling that aggression are very different from the ways that male aggression is channeled in Western societies and the way young boys are socialized into, you know, Yes. And they go to watch a soccer game or football or whatever.

00:54:56 Jordan Peterson: They become competitive economically or competitive in sports, or they're still they're still striving to win. Yeah, but, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

00:55:07 (someone): I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

00:00:00 (someone): Welcome to episode 232 of the JBP podcast. I'm Michaela Peterson. In this episode, Dad hosted Jimmy Carr, a world-renowned British comedian. For those of you who don't know, Jimmy's been the focus of the newest cancellation craze over his latest Netflix special, His Dark Materials. Specifically, people were offended by jokes about the Holocaust in the last part of the special. He referred to the jokes as career-enders, and they almost were. Dad took the opportunity to ask Mr. Carr about the controversy, seeing protesters outside his gigs, PC and cancel culture, the role of comedians in society, laughter, religion, love languages, and more. If you're tired of me interrupting this podcast for ads, which is how we afford to keep this podcast going, visit jordanbpeterson.supercast.com and sign up for the ad-free version. It works on all major platforms and it's just $10 a month. You also get exclusive access to pre-sale tickets monthly, Ask Me Anything episodes. You can submit questions for. Again, that's jordanbpeterson.supercast.com. And now, without further ado, Jimmy Carr.

00:01:20 (someone): you

00:01:28 Jordan Peterson: Hey everybody, I'm thrilled today to have with me Mr. Jimmy Carr, one of the world's funniest men. One of the world's purposefully funniest men, which is an important distinction. An award-winning comedian, writer, and television host, Mr. Jimmy Carr is one of the biggest-selling comedy acts in the world. He's performed in venues in 40 countries.

00:20:15 Jordan Peterson: It's fun being a Canadian in relationship to comedy because we I watched a fair bit of British comedy when I grew up I loved Monty Python which I discovered when I was 12 And I just I thought it was actually a circus show when I first watched it And I thought what the hell is this and then my dad turned out to like it too Which I thought was extremely bizarre and so what I loved about the British Brit comedy in particular I think this is characteristic of your culture is that British comedians tend to be extremely self-deprecating, and British satire is like that too. They're after themselves a lot, and Americans really didn't have a great hand for satire, I didn't think, until The Simpsons came along. That was the first truly self-satirical comedy that I'd seen coming out of the U.S.

00:20:59 (someone): You know, well, Mort Stahl or Lenny Bruce or any of those kind of greats would have been a huge influence of that. I mean, you know, the Simpsons didn't come out of nowhere. I mean, standing on the shoulder of giants, as is always the way with comedy. You know, we're kind of part of a very proud tradition that goes back through variety and court jesters and trickster gods. We're part of that tradition. We're outside looking in. We're slightly other. I mean, it's that thing of comedians in a room of 3,000 people, are we the one person facing the wrong way? That kind of sums us up as a group.

00:21:35 Jordan Peterson: Yeah, well, that's kind of the position of artists in general, because artists tend to be outside the, what you say, the traditional competence hierarchies.

00:07:18 (someone): And I objected to the mandates and refused as a conscientious objector to take from the booster shot onwards. Having been coercively injected in prison against my will, I thought that it was absolutely unacceptable for the state to put me back in that position. Yeah, because everything I had been fighting for since up until that point, including on LBC, and this relates to the Abraham Accords question you've just asked me, Jordan, was for universal peace and love. And with the background that I have, which I won't go into now, it's well known. And if anyone wants to catch up on that, they can watch my other interviews. But with the background I have, I thought it was particularly important for me to reach out to all communities in peace and extend a hand. of peace, we say salamu alaykum when we meet people, and I did so with, and I don't need to go over that as well, the track record there for the last decade, what I've been doing is very clear, it culminated in my dialogue with Sam Harris, Islam and the Future of Tolerance, and that turned into a film. So when the Abraham Accords came about, in that spirit, Jordan, of course you'd expect me to want to give peace a chance, and my views in reaction to that are on the record, They're all there online, and again, before my job was cancelled, in fact, clips were uploaded of me embracing the opportunity for peace. What I'd like to say in response to your question, but I think it was necessary, that preamble was necessary, because I think peace, though it must be embraced, it has to be, regardless of power dynamics, I believe it has to be presented, the opportunity has to be presented, as if we are speaking to equals.

01:54:20 Jordan Peterson: It's not optional. And I'm so appalled that that was your experience at Columbia. It's so awful that you went through all that and managed to get to this great university and, you know, and that you had to shut yourself down and that your basic conclusion was that it was a waste of time. Now, did you have courses where that wasn't the case? Did you have courses that were worth it?

01:54:49 (someone): I mean, so one class I remember in my senior year, it was called the Western Civilization, the music art. One of the core that Columbia had is a Western art. Has still, not for long. But then I was excited to learn, but at the end of the day, this is still the West. America is in the West, right? It would be funny if you want to study Eastern music at the end of the core. The professor was like, who has a problem with calling the Western civilization like art? And every single one of them all lifting their hands because they were saying there are so many artists who are greater than Beethoven and Mozart. We silence them, erase them all. And that's why we have now end up studying these bigots who are racist. And I'm like, and then they were like looking at me, why are you not putting your hands up? Somebody who doesn't have the problem with talking about Western civilization. So I was like, do I even have to do this to graduate? And that was, of course, necessary to do that course to graduate. So every class had an element of being politically correct and shaping you how you think.

00:59:58 (someone): Yes. Yes. I mean, I think you're leaning into, you know, a lot of what we call a cancel culture today. Yeah. Is can that, you know, in the name of rehabilitation, do we have to have a world in which we are able to grow and evolve if that's what we're trying to do now? Oh, I mean, you know, I'm not for repeat offenders or tyrants. But if someone screws up, and they have sincere, they sincerely want retribution.

01:00:35 Jordan Peterson: I think it's fair to give people well, it better be because otherwise, we're all doomed.

01:00:39 (someone): Right?

01:00:40 Jordan Peterson: Well, absolutely. Like there's not a person among us who hasn't made repeated errors. And and if contrition and and repentance aren't sufficient, then we're all damned. No doubt about that. So. All right. So. So we were we were continuing our discussion on fame. So you you're 25 years into being famous and you seem to be doing it, handling your success. Right. in a manner that allows you to be pleased about the way your life has unfolded. And so thank God for that. And here you are, you're still here after all these years. And so you've handled your fame. Well, how come?

00:33:43 Jordan Peterson: And why do you let's start with that? This what is this set of assumptions about the about race relations in the US that that perturb you?

00:33:51 (someone): Well, there's one main assumption, which is that it's the job of the, shall we say, woke Black person to focus on racist obstacles to Black success and to purport that racism, be it social or systemic, is a conclusive obstacle to general Black success. rather than an impediment that you can get around. And then there's an extension from that, that racism of both of those kinds is so oppressive that it's the defining experience of being a Black person. And so it means that if you are a Black person and you're writing, be it fiction or nonfiction or opinion, your focus is supposed to be always and forever racist oppression. Because if you're not doing that, you're not authentic and you're dissociating yourself from blackness in some way. And I find that as a, as a Montessori kid who has a lot of interests, I've always found that extremely confining. As soon as I hit adolescence, I realized, wow, I'm expected to be this racism focused person, maintaining a wariness of white socially that has not been necessary since about, you know, five years before I was born. And I think that it is, It's a cloak that people put on because human beings seek comfortable cloaks to put on. It becomes a sense of being part of a tribe, but it has a way of departing from what reality actually necessitates.