00:44:08

Dan Harris: They feel like they're drowning, they feel unsafe, so they co-opt other people as life rafts. in a hostile world. They didn't get the support they needed, perhaps, as a kid, and so they're just constantly latching onto it now. And yet, when you listed the many hallmarks of emotional immaturity, there were other aspects to it, like interpreting everything through the lens of the self, being totally self-centered, believing that you're right all the time. I think you mentioned that, but maybe you didn't, but at least, okay, you did mention it. So I feel like I know a lot of people who have those characteristics, perhaps even myself, in spades. And maybe they don't have the whole enmeshment thing, at least clearly. And so I'm just wondering, would they not qualify fully as emotionally immature?

00:44:54

(someone): What I look for is kind of the opposites of those Hallmark characteristics. In other words, let's not forget that if we are nervous, sick, fatigued, going through an emergency, our emotional maturity will probably plummet. Nobody is at their most empathic, non-egocentric best when they're really sick or things are really going wrong. So, regression absolutely can happen to all of us. I certainly don't... count myself out of that because I know how I've been when I've been in some rough situations. It's like you are not your best self. You're not thinking about other people in the same way you would when all your needs are being taken care of. So we have to keep that in mind.

00:29:43

(someone): Mm-hmm.

00:29:46

Dan Harris: So what does that look like? So if you've got a boss or a spouse, a sibling, a friend or a parent who's got an instrumental view of you, where they're enmeshed in a way that you just become an extension of their ego, how would you manage that on an ongoing basis if you didn't want to cut them out of your life?

00:30:07

(someone): Yeah. Well, the fact is that as long as you're unconscious of the process, as long as you're unconscious or unaware of what is happening between you, like what the dynamic is that you're being kind of maneuvered into this particular role, or you're being maneuvered into following these expectations or else you're a bad person. If you're not aware of that, you probably are going to get maneuvered into that because they're so good at it. Believe me, they've gotten really good at getting other people to take care of them. So if you don't have that awareness of the dynamic, you're going to move into that relationship and be kind of taken over by them. So for me, it seems crucial that people be aware of what emotional immaturity looks like and what its motives are. Its motive is not to make your life miserable or to harm you or anything like that. The motive of the emotionally immature relationship system is, I can't do it on my own. I'm immature. I don't have a strong sense of self. I can't figure the world out very well, and I need somebody to run interference for me. I need somebody to take care of me.

00:20:38

(someone): So those two interactions are very central to any kind of emotionally immature relationship system. You're going to find yourself put in the position of being kind of an emotional caretaker or the person who beefs up their self-esteem. And that's... why I said it's very tiring because it's an energy drain to be that alert to another person's inner state. So, you know, when you hear terms like energy vampire or, you know, how draining someone is, that's because they're not able to really modulate their own emotions and soothe themselves. And so, they turn to you to help them regulate their own emotions. Now, that's exactly what little kids do, and we expect them to do that. That's normal and healthy because they can't regulate their internal state. They need to be able to come to an adult and have that adult understand with empathy what's going on inside that child, and then respond in ways that soothe them, help them learn how to calm down. And that's normal development. The child gets their self-esteem internalized through many interactions with their parent, where the parent loves that child and adores that child. And that little child is just the cutest little thing ever. And the child feels delighted in, and they internalize that self-esteem. Well, for emotionally immature people, what probably happens is that there is some difficulty that occurs in the attachment process or in the basic quality of relationship with their parent or their caretakers. Something happens where they're not able to trust and complete that process of internalizing their own comfort and their own ability to regulate their reactions and responses to stress. It may be that they experience trauma.

00:15:54

(someone): That's kind of where the rubber meets the road and you start to see, you know, some of these things be directed back at you in a very unpleasant way, or maybe you'll get the cold shoulder, but it won't be that they will come toward you and try to work it out with you. What they'll do instead is express their displeasure and hope that you get the message that you need to shape up and be the way that they want you to be. So I think it's crucial that we be aware of emotional immaturity and look out for it because what happens if we go ahead and marry that person or we go ahead and make that business deal, sign that contract with somebody who's not able to do some of the basics of working out problems with other people? I mean, that's a terrible situation to get yourself into. So yes, the why is because it's going to be a hard road with that person if you have to negotiate or work things out with them when things get tough. And it's much easier to spend the time up front to get to know them better, you know, to kind of suss out whether or not they do handle things in emotionally mature ways. It's much more economical to spend the time up front than to pay later.

00:17:26

Dan Harris: How do you know you're right? And most of us are not clinicians. So how do we know if we're right in our diagnosis?

00:17:32

(someone): Well, to me, you know, it's going off those Hallmark characteristics because every one of those spells trouble for a long-term relationship. I mean, if you don't have empathy or you are not comfortable with intimacy or you can't self-reflect, for instance, you're not going to be a very good partner in any kind of relationship.

00:06:02

(someone): It's because it's not going to show up until these particular conditions are there. So if we want to just do a quick run-through of the characteristics of emotional immaturity, the first one is that they tend to be very egocentric. These are people who are self-preoccupied. They're always thinking of what's in it for them, how is it going to affect them, and they really don't have much appreciation that other people are psychologically real on the inside. They're more like characters in a play that the person is in. They have poor empathy. It's hard for them to feel what other people are feeling. So they don't have great imagination when it comes to putting themselves in someone else's shoes. And they don't mentalize what other people are probably thinking about. They also have very poor self-reflection. So if they have a problem in a relationship or a problem at work, they're not going to ask themselves, gee, did I do something to cause that? Was there something that I was saying that was making this person uncomfortable? That would not occur to them because they externalize and project blame. for most things that go wrong in their lives. This makes it very hard for them to change, too, because the people that come to psychotherapy usually are the ones who are asking themselves those questions, and they do have the potential for transformation because they're showing some curiosity about how they're showing up in the world and the effects that they're causing, but not the emotionally immature person. they're very afraid of emotional intimacy.

00:14:18

(someone): But they're very hard to spot because, like I said, their social skills, their intelligence, all of that is fine. And so, you may be really drawn in and really relate very well to them for a long time. You know, like, let's say you're doing something in business with them, or let's say you start to date them. things can go well for a long time. And I'm reminded of this psychiatrist, Hervey Cleckley, who worked with psychopaths, who certainly are emotionally mature. And he said that he could always tell a psychopath because that was the person he lent money to. So... I mean, even if you know about emotional immaturity, you're going to respond to charm, you're going to respond to attention, you're going to respond to social charm and facility. I mean, we all respond to that stuff. But over time, as you get to know the person, you're going to find out a lot more about how they cope with life and how they treat other people. At the beginning of the relationship, you may feel like the only person on earth in their eyes. But as time goes on, you'll see how they handle disagreements, you'll see how they handle it when things don't go their way, and you'll see what they do when it looks like they're not going to get everything that they want. That's kind of where the rubber meets the road and you start to see, you know, some of these things be directed back at you in a very unpleasant way, or maybe you'll get the cold shoulder, but it won't be that they will come toward you and try to work it out with you.

00:04:14

(someone): Sure. Emotional immaturity is a line of development, just like people develop in their intellect, they develop in their social skills, they develop physically. These are all lines of development that most of us are pretty adept at noticing whether a person has developed normally in those areas. Emotional immaturity is its own separate line of development. And so you can have a person who could be intellectually very bright, very accomplished, or they could be super socially skilled, the most popular person in their group, but that doesn't mean anything about their level of emotional maturity. Emotional maturity really is seen when the person is under stress or if they're in an emotionally intimate relationship. Those are the two places that emotional immaturity shows itself. So there are a lot of areas in life that people show up in that don't have to do with emotional intimacy, and they don't have to do with stress. They're just normal daily functioning, and these people look perfectly normal. But when they go home and they are faced with relationship issues or stresses that they may not show in other situations, then the people who are living with them really get to see the emotional immaturity, and they really bear the brunt of it in a way that other people might say, what? Your mom? She's so sweet. She's so cute. Or it could be, your husband, he's such a great guy, what are you talking about? It's because it's not going to show up until these particular conditions are there. So if we want to just do a quick run-through of the characteristics of emotional immaturity, the first one is that they tend to be very egocentric.

00:44:08

Dan Harris: They feel like they're drowning, they feel unsafe, so they co-opt other people as life rafts. in a hostile world. They didn't get the support they needed, perhaps, as a kid, and so they're just constantly latching onto it now. And yet, when you listed the many hallmarks of emotional immaturity, there were other aspects to it, like interpreting everything through the lens of the self, being totally self-centered, believing that you're right all the time. I think you mentioned that, but maybe you didn't, but at least, okay, you did mention it. So I feel like I know a lot of people who have those characteristics, perhaps even myself, in spades. And maybe they don't have the whole enmeshment thing, at least clearly. And so I'm just wondering, would they not qualify fully as emotionally immature?

00:44:54

(someone): What I look for is kind of the opposites of those Hallmark characteristics. In other words, let's not forget that if we are nervous, sick, fatigued, going through an emergency, our emotional maturity will probably plummet. Nobody is at their most empathic, non-egocentric best when they're really sick or things are really going wrong. So, regression absolutely can happen to all of us. I certainly don't... count myself out of that because I know how I've been when I've been in some rough situations. It's like you are not your best self. You're not thinking about other people in the same way you would when all your needs are being taken care of. So we have to keep that in mind.

00:17:32

(someone): Well, to me, you know, it's going off those Hallmark characteristics because every one of those spells trouble for a long-term relationship. I mean, if you don't have empathy or you are not comfortable with intimacy or you can't self-reflect, for instance, you're not going to be a very good partner in any kind of relationship. It's going to be hard on the other person. You don't have to be a clinician to know that when somebody gives you the cold shoulder, speaks curtly to you in a way that makes you feel very small, refuses to talk with you about problems because they just don't like it, they just don't see why they should, Any normal human being is going to have a reaction to that because the interpersonal quality of a relationship with an emotionally immature person is that sooner or later you're going to end up emotionally taking care of them putting them first, and kind of agreeing that they're the most important person in the relationship. And that gets tiring. But you'll be able to tell that, and people do tell it early in relationships, it's that they haven't known what to call that. And so they might have those experiences and then chalk it up to, oh, he was tired, or, you know, I wasn't very sensitive to her, or, you know, they'll make excuses for it. That's why I think it's so important for us to know about emotional immaturity, because some of these things can be lifelong patterns that maybe you don't want to get involved with.

01:00:58

(someone): Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

01:01:01

Dan Harris: Coming up, Lindsay talks about why she encourages what she calls alternatives to forgiveness, handling your own emotionally immature tendencies, and how to prevent brain scramble when you're talking to somebody who is not making any attempt to understand what you are actually saying. If you've interacted with an EIP either on a super deep level as, you know, having been raised by one or two, having had an intimate relationship with one, or even on a less enmeshed level, like working with or working for somebody who's emotionally immature, if you've had this experience, you may be pissed about it. You know, I'm just wondering, like, is forgiveness the right move? You, in your book, talk about something you call alternatives to forgiveness.

01:01:55

(someone): Yeah, I think it's really been a big cultural emphasis on forgiveness. And I mean, some of it is religious, but I think it's now kind of edged over into being, you know, sort of a recommendation for mental health. And I think it's so unfair because I don't think people have a lot of control over whether they're able to forgive somebody. Forgiveness, I think, comes to you when it's ready, when you're ready. I don't think it's something that you can helpfully push yourself into or aspire to because forgiveness has to be something that genuinely comes from the core of yourself, at least in my definition of forgiveness. It's not lip service. It is almost a reconsideration of what happened to you. to where you can respond with compassion maybe for the other person or certainly for understanding that person's limitations that made them do that.

00:40:56

(someone): They start looking for information outside of themselves to kind of get a read on the situation because maybe they're You know? But that is, like you say, that is like playing right into the maneuvers that emotionally mature people do to keep themselves feeling safe and in control. I actually don't like the word manipulate because I don't think they're doing it consciously. I don't think they're doing it to harm anybody. I don't think they're trying to make other people's lives miserable. I think these are all defensive maneuvers to keep them from feeling inadequate or afraid or something really, really awful. I think they're trying to stay away from some inner fears and some insecurities that they really don't want to get in touch with. They're not trying to do that at your expense. It's just like a person who's going under for the last time is not trying to drown the person who's rescuing them. It's just they need someone to stand on top of. to get a breath of air.

00:42:06

Dan Harris: I appreciate that perspective. Do you ever get perversely excited when you meet an EIP out in nature, you know, at a family barbecue or whatever, because it gives you an opportunity to just study them in the wild?

00:42:21

(someone): Actually, I have to confess that I do get a little excitement when I encounter them in the wild. just because I know what I'm looking for now, you know? And then let me also hasten to add that I also get excited when I run into emotionally mature people. because I can tell who they are too. They're the ones who listen.

00:22:47

(someone): able to trust and complete that process of internalizing their own comfort and their own ability to regulate their reactions and responses to stress. It may be that they experience trauma. Trauma just stops development in certain areas. That might happen. There might be external things that break apart the parent's ability to be there for the child through no fault of the child or the parent, you know, like natural disasters or illnesses, things like that. But the problem is that that child's developmental needs, their emotional needs, don't go away because there's been a natural disaster, they continue. And when the parent may be too overwhelmed to respond to the child, the child's not getting something that it needed to continue their psychological growth, their emotional development. So that's how it may happen. I don't know that there are any studies about emotional immaturity and how it develops yet, but we certainly have a lot of information from attachment studies that when the child is not in a securely attached relationship early in life, they don't pick up a lot of these things that we assume a normal person to have, like the empathy and the ability to think of other people. And then for the, how common is it? I think you can read the news or watch the world scene.

00:24:36

Dan Harris: Who could she be referring to? Who could she be referring to?

00:24:41

(someone): I mean, it's all over the place. People behaving badly. People who react to stress by starting wars. Personally, I think all I have to do is read the newspaper and realize how widespread emotional immaturity really is. Because you can see the egocentrism.

01:11:02

(someone): The effect on people by emotionally immature people can be so disorienting and make you feel so much self-doubt And it's important for people to know that that's normal, okay? When you try to maybe talk to an emotionally immature person about something difficult, you should just expect that you may fail to get your point across, you may fail to do the kind of argument that you had planned, because when somebody is not interested in what you have to say, And when they're not listening to you, when they're going off on tangents, when they're acting like there's something wrong with you, that you're disagreeing with them, that is very disorienting. and destabilizing, okay? So I just want to mention that because I don't want people to continue to feel like they're weak or can't keep their thoughts straight when they have an encounter with an emotionally immature person. I want them to realize that's part and parcel of their interactional way of doing things. And if you're aware of that, then you can change it, then you can go into it again with a simplified, focused outcome in mind where you don't get pulled off into these things that don't make any sense. So I just want to mention that because a lot of people don't understand how discombobulating it is when another person is not listening. It's like, if a person wants to understand what you're saying, it doesn't matter how you say it. They're going to do the work to understand you. If a person doesn't want to understand you, then it doesn't matter what you say. because they are not even going to be listening to what you're saying.

00:57:44

(someone): How can we get them to develop the inner strength and the sense of healthy entitlement to be their own person as they interact with this immature person. Let's do the necessary work on the inside to strengthen the person in their own individuality, not just take them out of the situation and still have them be living all of this inside themselves.

00:58:14

Dan Harris: What do you find generally works in terms of building up somebody's individuality?

00:58:19

(someone): I think in therapy, when you go in and you sit with somebody who looks at you like you're really there and treats you like you're psychologically real, that somebody's in there, that you have something to say, and that even your smallest feelings are important. When you get that experience with somebody, you begin to feel what it's like to feel like an individual. And a lot of people haven't had that, unfortunately, in some of their major relationships. So in therapy, you're actually getting the experience of being treated like an individual. But this could happen with an excellent spouse. This could happen with a best friend. It's like people say that how important relationships have been in their lives. And this is why, because that person recognizes your individuality. They relate to you as a person who has their own thoughts and who has their own feelings, and they treat you like you're real. And it helps you develop yourself. I mean, you believe it when somebody sees that in you. And so learning how to reconceptualize yourself as an important individual who is real on the inside and who is just as important as everybody else is like a tremendous antidote to what you are conditioned to accept with emotionally immature relationships.

00:26:18

(someone): Makes them feel calm, makes them feel stabilized. So we get entangled because we end up finding ourselves pulled into a role of kind of psychological caretaking that we never anticipated, we never signed up for, and yet we're deep into it. We're dealing with their reactions, we're helping them to feel better, we're dealing with their anger. There are a lot of things going on, that tend to pull people in to a relationship that ends up feeling like you're tangled in it. It doesn't feel like you're free to be yourself. It doesn't feel like you're important, too, or you're just as important as them. It feels like they're the ones who are consuming all the resources in the relationship. And also because emotionally immature people don't have a great sense of self, they tend to do this thing that has been called enmeshment, meaning that they kind of draw other people into their sense of identity. So, let's say that a woman marries a man who then becomes part of her identity as successful or a socially well-respected woman. But he becomes, in this example, kind of an object in her life that is for the purpose of her own identity. Or let's say it's a mother who insists on telling her grown child what to do, how to live their life. And that enmeshment means that the boundaries are not good. The boundaries that should be there between two individual adults are not being respected, and that other person is seen merely as an extension of the emotionally immature person. And

00:33:11

(someone): And by that, I mean that you begin to observe how they're behaving, what they're doing, and you narrate it to yourself. It increases your objectivity and your perspective so that you're not pulled in to this entangled relationship where you're just reacting emotionally. For emotionally immature people, it's a dream come true when you go in and you are reacting emotionally to them because they're so effective at using that to get what they want. So when you pull back and become objective and observational, you are freeing yourself from that emotionally immature relationship system, and you're giving yourself an opportunity to really be yourself in that person's presence, instead of just the reflection of what they want to see. So that being yourself is so crucially important. For therapy patients, people I've worked with who have people in their lives like this, that's the number one thing we have to do is just to get them to pay attention to what they want, how they feel, what they think is right, because they get so muddled up with being consumed by what the emotionally immature person wants. I mean, when that system is working, that's where your thoughts go is, yeah, but what about them? What's going to happen to him? What's going to happen to her? It's like, remember to take care of yourself first and to make sure that you set boundaries that give you the space to be in touch with yourself like that.

00:35:03

Dan Harris: Coming up, Lindsay C. Gibson talks about what often happens to your own sense of self when you're in a relationship or even just in a conversation with an EIP, how to interact with EIPs more effectively, how she reacts when she comes across an EIP in nature, whether or not EIPs can change, and the limits of estrangement.

00:44:08

Dan Harris: They feel like they're drowning, they feel unsafe, so they co-opt other people as life rafts. in a hostile world. They didn't get the support they needed, perhaps, as a kid, and so they're just constantly latching onto it now. And yet, when you listed the many hallmarks of emotional immaturity, there were other aspects to it, like interpreting everything through the lens of the self, being totally self-centered, believing that you're right all the time. I think you mentioned that, but maybe you didn't, but at least, okay, you did mention it. So I feel like I know a lot of people who have those characteristics, perhaps even myself, in spades. And maybe they don't have the whole enmeshment thing, at least clearly. And so I'm just wondering, would they not qualify fully as emotionally immature?

00:44:54

(someone): What I look for is kind of the opposites of those Hallmark characteristics. In other words, let's not forget that if we are nervous, sick, fatigued, going through an emergency, our emotional maturity will probably plummet. Nobody is at their most empathic, non-egocentric best when they're really sick or things are really going wrong. So, regression absolutely can happen to all of us. I certainly don't... count myself out of that because I know how I've been when I've been in some rough situations. It's like you are not your best self. You're not thinking about other people in the same way you would when all your needs are being taken care of. So we have to keep that in mind.

00:54:01

(someone): whatever that might be. And once they have a little bit of self-reflection, which may be brought about by a family member who says, you know, if you don't get therapy, I'm not coming home anymore. Or if we can't work this out, and if you can't change some of these things, I can't stay with you. Lots of times people are motivated extrinsically if they're emotionally immature because they are realizing this is what's going to happen if I continue on this path. That's the beginning of self-reflection. People who enjoy introspection do self-reflection because it's fun for them. For the emotionally immature person, they may have to be dragged kicking and screaming into self-reflection. But once they start to do that, in therapy, you can actually nurture that curiosity about them and how they got to be that way. And so I think they can change. I just think that getting them to the point of self-reflection is really the very, very hard part.

00:55:16

Dan Harris: Which is why you advise that we go into these encounters with realistic expectations, not like holistic change expectations.

00:55:25

(someone): Exactly. Yeah. Because if you expect the other person to change, I mean, you have zero control over that for one thing. And it's usually a goal that you're going to fail at, which is not a great way to go into an interaction.

00:55:39

Dan Harris: As I keep saying, the book is about disentangling. One way to disentangle is complete estrangement. However, you say that there are some limits to estrangement.

01:02:51

(someone): It is almost a reconsideration of what happened to you. to where you can respond with compassion maybe for the other person or certainly for understanding that person's limitations that made them do that. Or maybe for some people, the wholesale religious forgiveness works. Okay, I'm not denying that that happens. I'm just saying to suggest that as a therapeutic approach or a therapeutic method, I don't think is fair to people. And I certainly tell people in therapy that that's not a goal we have to have right now. It has nothing to do with them being a good person. It has nothing to do with their recovery. What will influence their recovery is their working through the feelings of what happened to them and owning that as a part of their new individuality. And when they can do that, later on, they can decide whether or not forgiveness is in the cards for this relationship, okay? But it's not something that you can make yourself do. So we have to be respectful of that.

01:04:09

Dan Harris: So what would fall into the category of an alternative?

01:04:13

(someone): Working through the feelings.

01:04:15

Dan Harris: I see, I see. There's not like a cousin of forgiveness that you're recommending instead.

01:04:20

(someone): Hmm, is there a cousin to forgiveness? That's a great question.

01:04:25

Dan Harris: Maybe like understanding the roots of it, like if I can understand why you're an EIP without forgiving you.

01:04:31

(someone): Yes. Actually, the understanding or the insight to why a person is that way can lead to a kind of compassion.

00:52:17

(someone): See, sticking to your position is a major accomplishment with emotionally immature people. I mean, if you can do that, if you can go into an interaction with a certain goal in mind for yourself, and you walk out of that interaction with that same goal, I mean, hallelujah, that is a fabulous accomplishment because they haven't scrambled your brain or pulled you off of your own path to the point where you don't even remember what you were trying to do in the interaction, which is what happens a lot.

00:52:57

Dan Harris: You talk about in these interactions to have a discrete and realistic goal and not to, you know, be looking for changing the other person, the EIP fundamentally. Can an EIP ever change?

00:53:12

(someone): If they have self-reflection, if they have a little bit of self-reflection, I mean, that's what it takes for anybody to change. How can you change yourself if you have no desire or no ability to look at your own behavior? I mean, for me, that's the absolute essential. And sometimes it's only when things get really bad that someone is able to be self-reflective. With substance abuse, we have often heard that thing about hitting bottom and so forth. And it doesn't necessarily have to be hitting bottom, but it has to be some experience that brings self-reflection into the picture for that person. whatever that might be. And once they have a little bit of self-reflection, which may be brought about by a family member who says, you know, if you don't get therapy, I'm not coming home anymore.

00:55:43

Dan Harris: One way to disentangle is complete estrangement. However, you say that there are some limits to estrangement. It may not solve everything. What do you mean by that?

00:55:53

(someone): You know, it seems like moving away from somebody or not seeing them anymore could be a perfect solution to a difficult relationship. But what often happens is that because human beings carry the patterning of their relationships inside them, I mean, that's how we grow up, that is how we psychologically mature, is by internalizing interactions, internalizing other people's feelings and statements and so forth, we build our personalities from what's on the outside. But once it's in there, once we've patterned ourselves, we can move across the country, never see the person again, and still carry around the beliefs about ourself, the attitudes toward life, the sense of inadequacy that may have been our experience with the emotionally immature person. We carry this with us. So when people attempt kind of the geographical cure or the estrangement cure, you have to realize that it may still be necessary to seek out therapy for all the internalized patterns, the impact of that on you that you still carry around. you know, personally, inside myself in the therapy session, I'm not thinking, gosh, how can I get them to cut out contact with this toxic parent? I'm not thinking that. I'm thinking, how can we get this person to stay connected with themselves and stay in touch with their own needs and feelings, even while they're interacting with this very difficult person? How can we get them to develop the inner strength and the sense of healthy entitlement to be their own person as they interact with this immature person.